Saturday, July 19, 2014

In ascending order of seriousness

-Because all roads lead to Sunrise Mart, I now have nigari tofu coagulant. In liquid form, because that was what they had. Not sure what that'll mean for the recipe, but this is on.

Only the essentials. (Wall of DeCecco not pictured.)

-NJ Transit has basically given up for the summer. They seem to have put all their resources into keeping the train refrigerator-cold, and exactly none into such things as having trains match up with other trains, or arrive at something like the time indicated. I think this may be my first time experiencing "As a New Jersey taxpayer..." thoughts, but there it is.

-I don't do Middle East on social media. (By which I mean, Facebook or Twitter.) I observe. I read what friends and journalists and such post, and am definitely getting a wide range of at the very least Jewish opinion, ranging from the Israel-was-a-bad-idea-in-the-first-place perspective (yes, there are Jews who think this - maybe worth noting if you're hoisting up a placard against The Jews) to it's-all-Hamas's-fault (gosh, not all, but even if that were the case, these deaths are plenty upsetting), and, thank goodness, lots in between. I do plan to write on this at some point, but not in 140-character bursts. I don't think my views on this lend themselves to sound bytes (I do go on), and my reaction to the situation is more sadness than outrage, and it's the latter that's expected in such forums. If you're not outraged, you can't possibly care, or something. If I did enter a thread, I could probably summon some outrage, although depending whose thread, it could be in any which direction. (Well, not any.) And I'm not an amateur military strategist, which is the other approach that seems to lend itself to social-media weighing-in on such topics.

But I did pass along the Tablet stories about the French synagogue attacks, because that's sort of my beat, and because... ugh. One way to think of it: Let's say you believe Israel is 100% in the wrong, and get all Godwin about it. How does that justify attacks on French Jews? Ah, but they may support Israel! They may have family there! Think for a moment about where this logic leads. Oh right: stuff like internment camps. Was Japan on the right side of WWII? Not so much. Did that justify internment of Japanese-Americans? No, it did not. And no, it's not a perfect analogy obviously, for so many reasons, but I think the connection is clear.

14 comments:

abrahamandsarah said...

The French incident is much worse than the internment of Japanese during WW2. There is some logic to that internment - the US was at war with Japan, and it's not crazy to worry that recent Japanese immigrants would sympathize with the enemy (imagine if, G-d forbid, America were at war with Israel - it's hard to imagine there not being an urge to defend Israel).

Meanwhile in France, Israel and France are not at war at all...

Phoebe said...

But this isn't "France" attacking synagogues. It's a subset of people in France who identify with those who are at war with Israel, or who have a convenient pretext for attacking Jews. I'd guess it's a mix of those two.

Phoebe said...

Also - if Israel and the US were at war, my greater concern would be that American Jews, regardless of where they stood on that (thankfully theoretical!) conflict, would be oppressed by the government.

Petey said...

"But I did pass along the Tablet stories about the French synagogue attacks, because that's sort of my beat, and because... ugh. One way to think of it: Let's say you believe Israel is 100% in the wrong, and get all Godwin about it. How does that justify attacks on French Jews?"

Ah, Tablet. A fine neutral source.

Of course, both international and French media reported that the synagogue attacks immediately followed a large number of "Jewish Defense League" thugs violently attacking a legally sanctioned, peaceful pro-Palestinian protest in Paris.

But Shelly Adelson educated, hasbara Phoebe knows that already, of course. Mentioning it would weaken her propaganda point, however.

Doesn't make the synagogue attacks justifiable in the least, of course, but honest brokers (unlike Phoebe) might mention the immediately preceding violent Paris attack by fascist Jews to give that day's back-and-forth violence some context: including, most importantly, who initiated that day's violence.

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"Also - if Israel and the US were at war, my greater concern would be that American Jews, regardless of where they stood on that (thankfully theoretical!) conflict, would be oppressed by the government."

Yup. Just like when the US-dominated NATO/Serbia war led to Serbian-Americans being oppressed by the US government. Or am I misremembering something?

And just like when the deliberate and deadly Israeli attack on the USS Liberty resulted in US government pogroms against US Jews. It's a valid concern, Phoebe!

But on the bright side, which might help you sleep more soundly, when the US government attacks us, we could become "telegenically dead" if we're lucky!

Phoebe said...

Petey,

Actually, I would be curious for other stories on what's going on in Paris. Maybe link to one you think tells the truth, rather than calling me a propagandist, hmm? My interest here is what's going on in France, not using France as a way to weigh in on what Israel's up to at the moment.

Re: minorities being oppressed when their associated countries are at war with the US, this was in reference to the internment example also in the post...

Phoebe said...

OK, Petey, I may have saved you the trouble - I expect the Mondoweiss interpretation is one you'd find acceptable? I take it one understanding is that some French Jews organized a pro-Israel rally in front of a synagogue... thereby making an anti-Israel brawl look like an anti-Jewish one, given the location. Given the extent of propaganda being hurled in every which direction, that doesn't seem impossible. I've seen enough evidence that anti-Israel protesters in various locales are (with signs, voices) addressing "Jews" that I'm wary of setting aside that possibility entirely.

The best I can sort out, from spending not nearly enough time reading about this latest incident, is that there had been a thing where anti-Jewish attacks in France would get misclassified as intercommunal brawls... and that this latest incident was more like how these incidents have been described, because Jews are also fighting, or fighting back, depending whose perspective.

kei said...

One of the comments in the Cooking with Dog show said liquid is better than powder coagulant. Did you find the soy milk? There's a tofu place called Phoenix Bean that sells soy milk here in Chicago, I wondered if there'd be a place like that near you that would get you the kind of milk you need.

http://www.phoenixbean.com/

Phoebe said...

Thanks Kei! I need to find something like that. I ended up just buying soy beans (even if they'd had soy milk, I wasn't keen on bringing back fresh ingredients from NY on a hot summer day!), but will try not to have to go the super-from-scratch route if possible. There's a trip to H-Mart on the horizon, and that's almost got to be the closest place to where I live that might have it.

Petey said...

"The best I can sort out, from spending not nearly enough time reading about this latest incident, is that there had been a thing where anti-Jewish attacks in France would get misclassified as intercommunal brawls... and that this latest incident was more like how these incidents have been described, because Jews are also fighting, or fighting back, depending whose perspective."

Why spend time reading about the truth before broadcasting it when hasbara can just helpfully fill in the gaps for you?

Again, the initial violence of that day was not "anti-Jewish attacks in France (getting) misclassified as intercommunal brawls".

The initial violence of that day was a sizable number of "Jewish Defense League" fascists violently attacking a peaceful pro-Palestinian demonstration.

But hell, Paris is safer than Israel, no? "Death to Arabs" and "Leftists to the gas chambers" as slogans accepted by the median Israeli legal voter, used by Jewish fascists to violently attack peaceful Jewish-Arab protests with the connivance of the Israeli police? Sounds like Paris is a safer place to be an anti-"self-genocide" Jew than Israel...

Phoebe said...

Petey,

I invited you to provide links to what you believe to be accurate stories about what happened. You've responded with... your unsubstantiated thoughts, partially in bold. Were you an eyewitness to any of this? If not, then I'm afraid Tablet remains more reliable than a pseudonymous commenter using bold.

Petey said...

"I invited you to provide links to what you believe to be accurate stories about what happened. You've responded with... your unsubstantiated thoughts"

And then you said that you had saved me the trouble by finding the story yourself.

But you still take a hasbera account over the account of the President of the Synagogue in question! (More bold.)

In an interview broadcast Friday on the 24-hour news channel i-Télé, Serge Benhaïm said that there was “not a single projectile thrown at the synagogue” and that “at no moment, were we ever physically in danger.”

(Unlike the peaceful pro-Palestinian demonstors who were violently attacked and were physically in danger.)

This has been covered pretty extensively in the French and international press. But I'm sure your hasbera propaganda source knows the truth better than the President of the Synagogue de la Roquette, or the multiple videos, or the multiple (non-hasbera) straight news stories.

It was an attack on the synagogue. The fascist Jews didn't start the violence. The Gazans are committing self-genocide. Death to the Arabs. Lefiists to the gas chambers. It's all good to Phoebe, no?

Phoebe said...

I guessed Mondoweiss! You didn't confirm.

Anyway, you know what's a really fabulous way to win people over to your argument? Putting "Death to the X" cries into their mouths. Really moves the conversation forward.

Petey said...

"I guessed Mondoweiss! You didn't confirm."

For a third time, covered pretty extensively in the French and international press.

I went to Mondoweiss on your suggestion.

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"Were you an eyewitness to any of this? If not, then I'm afraid Tablet remains more reliable than a pseudonymous commenter using bold."

Irony #1:

You rely on a false account of the events from a hasbara pseudonymous diarist. And that pseudonym is a disposable, single-use pseudonym, while mine has a consistent trail.

Irony #2:

Herzl would've absolutely despised you and your crowd. You stand opposed to everything he advocated for. Yet you claim to be a Zionist.

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"Anyway, you know what's a really fabulous way to win people over to your argument? Putting "Death to the X" cries into their mouths. Really moves the conversation forward."

How could I win you over to my argument? You've been pretty clear on your viewpoint over the years. You worry about American Jews being put in concentration camps, but you don't worry about the actual Gaza concentration camp, or deliberate massacres of children.

No need to put words in your mouth, beyond your tribal overt identification with those who actually do mouth those words.

You're a garden-variety ethno-fascist.

If you'd been a French Catholic, you'd have been an anti-Dreyfusard.

If you'd been a Serb, you'd have been pro-Milošević.

If you'd been an Afrikaner, you'd have been pro-Apartheid.

And you know you else benefited from the support of ethno-fascists?

Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me your concerns are actual less tribal and more universal. Tell me you actually care more about truth-seeking than propaganda. It'd be nice to see you shift.

Phoebe said...

Petey,

"You're a garden-variety ethno-fascist."

And you, a delight as always.

Look, people come to WWPD for, among other things, French Jews news. I asked you to provide links to something, anything (mainstream press is fine!) that you considered accurate, and you evidently don't care enough about the Palestinians to be bothered. I assume people on every possible side of this issue are already following it elsewhere, and anyway, since I don't think even the worst Israeli military or political decisions justify European anti-Semitism (which is happening - or do you not believe any of these stories?), my sense was - is! - that to go down that road is to suggest that if I were sufficiently annoyed at Israel, I'd be OK with a certain level of anti-Jewish hatred.

But, argh... Obviously what's happening in Gaza is terrible, and obviously Israeli military policy, combined with the anti-Arab Twitter thuggishness of certain Israelis, isn't helping. I have nothing new on this, no insights on the degree of terribleness that haven't been expressed. Is this the "shift" you want? Not sure how, since this isn't my first time saying something like this: http://whatwouldphoebedo.blogspot.com/2011/07/palestinian-cause-vs-palestinians-cause.html

The entire world - and I include myself - is worried about the Palestinians, but I'm not sure that's ultimately a good thing for Palestinians. I will totally expand on that thought at some point, but not in WWPD comments.