tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post926735150845546761..comments2024-03-12T22:31:46.500-04:00Comments on What Would Phoebe Do?: Feminisn'tPhoebe Maltz Bovyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-39838663274702989172014-10-29T21:47:43.739-04:002014-10-29T21:47:43.739-04:00Seven months to the day after her comment, Amber m...Seven months to the day after her comment, Amber moved out, answering Phoebe's question: how mature are young women?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-4384216822647810442008-02-11T13:15:00.000-05:002008-02-11T13:15:00.000-05:00The asymmetry of options for the middle-aged is so...The asymmetry of options for the middle-aged is something feminism has not found a way around. It's not that older women lack the urge to be promiscuous, but that the options simply aren't there. Even those women with no inclination towards marriage (Gottlieb) end up realizing that dating around only works for so long. <BR/><BR/>The lose-lose is that if one takes the social-conservative position and marries young, the husband with whom one consummates a white wedding at 21 will, at 42, leave you for a 21-year-old. Social conservatism does not work unless all agree to do their part. But if you wait around, you end up in the Gottlieb/Sex and the City situation. Which does suggest starting out with an older man would work. But the disadvantages to (and awkwardness of) that option remain. <BR/><BR/>The only way around all of this is for women to objectify men right back at them, to value youth and beauty in them just as they do in us. Not to just value youth and beauty, but to accept that it's human and natural for both women and men to take these into account. <BR/><BR/>Once younger women cease to be available to all but the most impressive older men, older men will be forced to contend with their own limited options.Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-87327366180127915082008-02-11T12:54:00.001-05:002008-02-11T12:54:00.001-05:00Also, isn't your argument against younger women da...Also, isn't your argument against younger women dating older men effectively the same as the social <A HREF="http://crookedtimber.org/2007/03/06/also-feminism-is-not-responsible-for-girls-gone-wild/" REL="nofollow">conservative argument</A> against feminism and the sexual revolution? I.e., that prior to the sexual revolution women had formed a sexual cartel against men and could thus demand commitment and good behavior from them, and that feminism has actually weakened women's position by breaking up the cartel?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08547537321915666210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-13972267560096260402008-02-11T12:54:00.000-05:002008-02-11T12:54:00.000-05:00That's certainly possible. But anecdotal evidence ...That's certainly possible. But anecdotal evidence suggests that the urge to marry the person you've been with and been happy with for a number of years is not all that gender-specific, or else who are all these engaged same-age couples on Facebook? (This could be the UChicago exception proving the rule, to answer my own question. Or, the marriages may all end with the men leaving these women for 25-year-olds in due time. Hmm.) <BR/><BR/>But still, there's familial/societal pressure on both the man and the woman in each couple to turn a living-together relationship into a marriage. That pressure gets blurred with what the woman in the couple allegedly wants, such that women, even women happy to remain unmarried, still represent the familial/societal pressure in each relationship. Even in relationships where the man's the far more interested party, the idea that the woman wants a ring is often, on some level, assumed.Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-45522471684670307072008-02-11T12:29:00.000-05:002008-02-11T12:29:00.000-05:00There's also the problem that while you might not ...There's also the problem that while you might not be ready to marry at 24, you could be at 27 and the guy you've been dating for the last few years still isn't (and has no clear timeline in mind). Since men can wait longer, you're stuck deciding whether to keep dating (and probably living with) this guy and hope he changes his mind soon, or giving up on him and looking for someone else. Dating older guys makes this less of a problem.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08547537321915666210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-67753137484004242982008-02-10T09:29:00.000-05:002008-02-10T09:29:00.000-05:00Wow, re the final comment in parentheses.I think t...Wow, re the final comment in parentheses.<BR/><BR/>I think there's a type of young man who's especially immature, but how mature are young women? I consider myself a competent person, but by no means a 'real' grown-up in so many ways. For one, although I could imagine wanting children one day, it's still 'one day,' the way it was when I was in high school, as in, not any time soon. Point being, while I see competence as a good quality in a boyfriend, I'm not sure how fantastic maturity would be, if it far exceeded my own. My boyfriend is older--by six days--and also a grad student. While this would indeed be a drawback if I were looking to move to a suburb and start a family, that is not the case.Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-43267037084036945562008-02-10T01:39:00.000-05:002008-02-10T01:39:00.000-05:00Younger men tend to be immature. Most of my male c...Younger men tend to be immature. Most of my male college friends are still adrift. My boyfriend is eleven years older than me, and he has a solid career, self- knowledge, and enough experience under his belt to not go sniffing after the first thing that distracts him. He knows what he wants. (Which was not, by the way, Lori Gottlieb, who he used to date--talk about dodging a bullet.)Amberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792206117772893217noreply@blogger.com