tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post4661251088167626937..comments2024-03-12T22:31:46.500-04:00Comments on What Would Phoebe Do?: Do gay men love women?Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-88955957222387034592011-11-23T10:42:45.968-05:002011-11-23T10:42:45.968-05:00"And (see above) if women find gay men less o..."And (see above) if women find gay men less of a physical threat, it's because these men are by definition not sexually attracted to women, not because straight women think they're "sissies." Thus misogyny is the bigger issue here than homophobia."<br /><br />I don't know how to argue against this, except to state two foundational premises. <br /><br />First, I don't see misogyny and homophobia as different things, they're aspects of the same thing, namely the the construction of gender, and are necessarily connected. So, a comparison of which is a "bigger issue" is, as far as I'm concerned is, just more text in that construction. Frankly, I'm optimistic that that conceptions of gender are changing so quickly that academic discussions on the matter are largely irrelevant. <br /><br />Second, there's far more to sexual violence than sexual attraction. And there's far more to sexual attraction than sexual orientation. And all of those things interact with variously multiplying degrees of freedom. And all of these things interact with gender and power, which floats variously free from sex and sexual orientation. Still, it is rather obvious that power dynamics and threats to the status quo of those dynamics cause aggression in those who are likely to succumb to it. <br /><br />I never believed for a second that any of the lesbians who gave me the evil eye in my few times in lesbian bars were concerned I'd be a prospective perp. I am merely large for a Fraggle, and was the only guy in a group of women composed by a majority of lesbians. It was, if you like, the counterrevolutionary nature of me being there - a threat to a precariously defended local status quo. In short, I thought that I could get my ass kicked *despite* not personally being a threat to anyone.Dan O.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-76671612668805934952011-11-23T09:48:18.860-05:002011-11-23T09:48:18.860-05:00Male violence against women tends to occur either ...Male violence against women tends to occur either in the form of sexual assault, or in the form of violence in the context of a romantic relationship. So while of course gay men are men (where in the post did I suggest otherwise?) and thus physically capable of beating a woman, they lack a key trait that would give them the incentive to do so, namely sexual attraction to women. A gay man might not be thrilled to see women at his preferred pick-up bar, but he's not going to rev up enough passion about this, I'd imagine, that he's likely to put the woman in physical danger.<br /><br />"But straight women express elements of the same by assuming that gay men are sissies who could never hurt them."<br /><br />As I go into in far too much detail in the post, I think the idea of straight women treating gay men as so many teacup chihuahuas far, far outweighs the presence in the real world of women behaving in this manner. And (see above) if women find gay men less of a physical threat, it's because <i>these men are by definition not sexually attracted to women</i>, not because straight women think they're "sissies." Thus misogyny is the bigger issue here than homophobia. <br /><br />Also, because homophobia is still a plenty big deal in society at large, we're inclined to assume (as this genre does) that this is all about a marginalized group being demonized by a powerful one (straight women). I saw this post as a bit of a corrective, a reminder that women, too, are marginalized, sometimes by the very men popularly assumed (<i>I</i> don't assume it, but it is a popular assumption) the "natural" best friends of women.Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-60118162912547265932011-11-23T09:03:19.799-05:002011-11-23T09:03:19.799-05:00"The worst women could do in a gay bar is be ..."The worst women could do in a gay bar is be an annoyance."<br /><br />This is where we disagree. Gay men are not immune from acting aggressively toward straight women who threaten them. Gay men are still very much men. <br /><br />Of course gay men express misogyny. But straight women express elements of the same by assuming that gay men are sissies who could never hurt them. My point is that it's exactly the mutual condescension involved that allows for tolerance.<br /><br />I'm all for the overall eradication of misogyny. And if that happened, I think we'd far fewer gay bars vs. straight bars, etc. This seems to be very much what's happening anyway (accelerated by the fact that pickups happen more online than bars). So, you know, pretty much everyone just unwinds at The Magician.Dan O.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-77127883844833969982011-11-22T16:10:40.002-05:002011-11-22T16:10:40.002-05:00Re: "would it?" - my answer is yes. It w...Re: "would it?" - my answer is yes. It would indeed be better for it to be acknowledged that women experience lust, that straight women will often enough find two members of the sex they're attracted to better than one, and to be unwelcome in gay bars, than to maintain the fiction that women are in gay bars a) to avoid the bad, bad male gaze,* and b) because gays make such charming accessories.<br /><br />But I don't think "unwelcome" would amount to the same thing, because with lesbian bars, there'd be the fear of male sexual agression (whereas the woman admiring two men kissing might skeeve out those men but is very unlikely to rape either), along with, independent of lesbianism, the feminist desire to create all-female spaces. The worst women could do in a gay bar is be an annoyance. So I don't think it's likely women would ever be banished in quite the same way. <br /><br />*Now that I think of it, I think I'd prefer it if women who said they prefer gay bars b/c no (or not many) straight men if they spelled out that they prefer this b/c it means not getting hit on <i>or rejected</i> by men. I think that would be more honest, and would serve as a good reminder that women are not always just the pursued.Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-55249183683217947072011-11-22T15:55:10.301-05:002011-11-22T15:55:10.301-05:00"What if, crazy I know, women at the gay bar ..."What if, crazy I know, women at the gay bar are the chasers and not the chased, and just as straight men find the idea of two women... hehe... you know, straight women experience the equivalent?"<br /> <br />They do, and it can result in some really awkward conversations, which happened a few times at after-shift hangouts/and events during my years volunteering at the Housing Works /UBC Cafe. It gave me a little bit of insight into what women have to deal with the more socially acceptable version of the fantasy in straight men. <br /><br />"But it would be nice if, in their analysis of straight women-gay men interactions, gay men interested in this issue would remember that straight women are not mere "breeders" devoid of hormones."<br /><br />Would it? Because then, maybe, women wouldn't be very welcome in gay bars. Just like men aren't very welcome in lesbian bars.Dan O.noreply@blogger.com