tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post3286204269021387116..comments2024-03-12T22:31:46.500-04:00Comments on What Would Phoebe Do?: Slurs and self-defensePhoebe Maltz Bovyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-5708297038581695562009-04-24T04:15:00.000-04:002009-04-24T04:15:00.000-04:00Once I find a copy, I'm going to lend you Lee Edel...Once I find a copy, I'm going to lend you Lee Edelman's Homographesis, since I think you'll find it particularly useful on this topic -- the constant over- and under-inscription of identities...Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14363311128428661742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-5249643908373077592009-04-20T18:40:00.000-04:002009-04-20T18:40:00.000-04:00OK, but that one has a pretty clear male counterpa...OK, but that one has a pretty clear male counterpart: "dick." Since calling a woman a man is not as insulting as calling a man a woman, there's no special meaning to calling a woman a "dick" in our society.<br /><br />Just to be clear - I meant that "girl" was analogous not to "bitch" but to "gay" - as in, something that can be used as a neutral descriptor or as an insult, depending the context/target.Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-11897414412909187662009-04-20T18:37:00.000-04:002009-04-20T18:37:00.000-04:00If we want to analogize carefully to bitch, we'd h...If we want to analogize carefully to bitch, we'd have to go for another word normally applied to an animal but then used about women and *really* an insult when used regarding a man: "pussy."PGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09381347581328622706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-8110225791948686932009-04-20T14:54:00.000-04:002009-04-20T14:54:00.000-04:00If we're getting really literal, no one uses "gay"...If we're getting really literal, no one uses "gay" to insult someone as "how happy and joyful you are!" But the example of "bitch" is useful to hold up against gay. If every time one kid calls another "gay" as a synonym for "uncool," that's an instance of overt homophobia, then any time someone refers to a guy in a subservient position as "you're her bitch!" seems at least as much if not more clearly an instance of misogyny. I.e., if a mindset where "gay" = uncool must be homophobic, then "bitch" = inferior must be misogynist. Which is kind of odd because "bitch" in a certain type of feminist's reclaiming shtick is supposed to refer to a woman who is strong and unafraid.PGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09381347581328622706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-61783260205026953722009-04-20T13:48:00.000-04:002009-04-20T13:48:00.000-04:00As insults go, how literal they are varies widely....As insults go, how literal they are varies widely. No one uses "bitch" to literally mean being a canine. Or "motherfucker" to mean engaging in that incestuous relationship. But "gay", when used by those old enough to know what "gay" means (I guessed over 8 - that might have been a low estimate).<br /><br />Jew-inspired recess-hour name-calling is largely a thing of the past, at least in parts of America where there are actual Jews. I've heard it does continue in places (US/Europe) without. The situations are not analogous in that sense. My point was only that 'Jew' as an insult/as used by an anti-Semite is not the same definition of 'Jew' as Jews themselves use, not just because it's pejorative, but because it refers to a much larger set of people. As in, not all anti-Semitism is 'about' those a Jew would consider a Jew. Just as all homophobia isn't 'about' people a gay person would consider gay. But that doesn't make anti-Semitism less about Jews, or homophobia less about gays.<br /><br /><A HREF="http://gawker.com/5216744/judith-warner-calling-kids-gay-has-nothing-to-do-with-gays#c12174618" REL="nofollow">Anyway...</A>Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-11802002999426492072009-04-20T10:40:00.000-04:002009-04-20T10:40:00.000-04:00I don't think you're giving enough space to the me...I don't think you're giving enough space to the meaning of "gay" that really seems to be most common among Kids These Days. A few years ago when my cousin was 13, I heard him refer to his little brother (then 9) as "so gay" for enjoying some no-longer-modish video game. I scolded him not for insulting his brother (who may or may not be gay -- who knows with the sexuality of a kid who isn't interested in porn yet?), but for using the word "gay" to mean "stupid" or "uncool." I consider insulting one's siblings a perquisite of having them, but I didn't want him to think it was OK to use "gay" as an insult even when he didn't mean "homosexual." And of course this usage is the most common on South Park, especially now that Big Gay Al rarely appears.<br /><br />I therefore disagree with Warner that we should worry about the injury to all young people of this kind of use of "gay." At least for the kids with whom I interact, I don't mind if they insult each other generally, but I don't want them to associate "gay" with "bad" in their rhetoric even if they don't consciously have negative attitudes toward gay people. The injury of the unconscious negativism that the rhetorical association creates is an injury to gay people specifically.<br /><br />There doesn't seem to be any similar use for "Jew." I suppose there's the verb usage "jewed down" to refer to hard bargaining, but even that can be a form of self-compliment on one's economic sophistication (e.g. "I got a great deal, really jewed the guy down").PGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09381347581328622706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-37584798934559127592009-04-19T21:00:00.000-04:002009-04-19T21:00:00.000-04:00It's a double helix of an argument but it makes se...It's a double helix of an argument but it makes sense. <br />--EHAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com