tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post2253220231480861957..comments2024-03-12T22:31:46.500-04:00Comments on What Would Phoebe Do?: 2013, the end of anti-Semitism?Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-76705145752663196062013-04-30T16:30:20.706-04:002013-04-30T16:30:20.706-04:00Oh, yeah, forgot I said that. I do think that blac...Oh, yeah, forgot I said that. I do think that black/non-black is the most meaningful and charged distinction for us, but not really the only one.caryatisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-86039373010101144592013-04-30T15:01:33.383-04:002013-04-30T15:01:33.383-04:00Oh, I was just responding to what you said re: bla...Oh, I was just responding to what you said re: black vs. non-black being all that mattered. I would say, though, that "Latino" is sometimes as much of a quasi-visible minority as "Jewish."Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-4844713721397648032013-04-30T15:00:16.175-04:002013-04-30T15:00:16.175-04:00Phoebe,
"Were you also, growing up, incapabl...Phoebe,<br /><br />"Were you also, growing up, incapable of noticing stereotypes about/the difference, real or constructed, of Asian-Americas? Latinos? "<br /><br />Well, yes, because race is one of the things our society pays (a lot of) attention to. As I was trying to say, I never learned that Jew vs. Christian was a distinction of equivalent importance.caryatisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-50625970821719457472013-04-29T21:19:43.172-04:002013-04-29T21:19:43.172-04:00Caryatis,
Were you also, growing up, incapable of...Caryatis,<br /><br />Were you also, growing up, incapable of noticing stereotypes about/the difference, real or constructed, of Asian-Americas? Latinos? In terms of picking Jews out of a crowd, considering I’m not capable of it, I wouldn’t expect random non-Jews to be, either. (No, not all Jews can pick out a Jew "from a mile away." See: the time an Orthodox kid picked out a certain definitively non-Jewish person in our Hebrew class and said that this, here, was the platonic ideal of an Ashkenazi Jew. Seth Meyers of SNL? Not Jewish. Nor Jonathan Krohn, ex-conservative wunderkind.) But that’s never been the point of anti-Semitism. Indeed, I will be the trillionth to point out that the reason the Nazis and much earlier anti-Jewish sorts made Jews wear a special badge was precisely because Jews did not always look all that different from their Gentile countrymen.<br /><br />Bartlet/Abby (for continuity’s sake),<br /><br />I think it’s important to distinguish between the inevitable plight of religious minorities and discrimination/bigotry/stereotyping. If a school or workplace fails to account for religious holidays, or dietary restrictions, it might be that they a) don’t know anyone belongs to the religion in question (after all, there are other minority religions, not all of which are represented in all cases), or b) they know but need it explained to them what it means. And that alone can be marginalizing, annoying, upsetting. There’s a downside to being a minority, even in a welcoming society. Stuff’s closed on some other group’s holidays, one must be the representative of one's kind all the time, which can get exhausting, etc. <br /><br />But it’s really only in case c) – they know, it’s been explained to them, and they persist, that I’d say there’s malice. It’s a bit like something that’s come up here recently re: that which is racist but not obviously so to those out-group. Such as, we don’t need to expect non-blacks to all know why “articulate” is offensive. We need only for those to whom this has been explained not to insist that because they don’t see the big deal, they’re going to say whatever they damn well please. So: not a problem to have scheduled prom for Passover. A problem, though, to make a fuss once this has been explained.Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-57211246685529867642013-04-29T20:28:52.282-04:002013-04-29T20:28:52.282-04:00Agreed regarding Passover. If you ask me, it's...Agreed regarding Passover. If you ask me, it's understandable to overlook holidays you don't celebrate, but to blame others for wanting to celebrate them is beyond the pale.caryatisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-19880132327966789092013-04-29T16:39:26.844-04:002013-04-29T16:39:26.844-04:00It was a two-fold thing for me. The scheduling of ...It was a two-fold thing for me. The scheduling of prom on Passover was frustrating but, as you said, benign. The fact that people (fellow students, peers) <i>gave me shit for wanting it changed</i> (and didn't get that it was actually a real holiday, just as important as theirs) was not benign. I suspect you wouldn't have told me I was ruining your prom.<br /><br />Funnily enough, I don't know that I ever hear that someone "looks Jewish" from non-Jews. Jews, on the other hand, can spot an MOT (Member of the Tribe) from a mile away.BartletForAmericahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04785356823064517394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-55838373752686451292013-04-29T11:38:27.352-04:002013-04-29T11:38:27.352-04:00But I can see how my cluelessness, although benign...But I can see how my cluelessness, although benign, is not ideal for the Jews, because I totally would have scheduled the prom for Passover too. Jewish holidays just aren't on the radar.caryatisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-18870804202124527522013-04-29T11:36:12.920-04:002013-04-29T11:36:12.920-04:00I think I’m a pretty typical clueless Gentile. Whe...I think I’m a pretty typical clueless Gentile. When I was growing up, I was aware of anti-Semitism from reading history, but it never seemed relevant to my life. To develop stereotypes about Jews that would have been relevant to 20th century America, I would have had to recognize a difference between Jews and non-Jewish white people, and I really didn’t.<br /><br />Being able to tell who is Jewish at a glance seems as strange to me as, say, being able to distinguish between an Irish person and a British one. That’s not a distinction I’ve been trained to look for. As someone has said, in this country there are only two races: black and non-black. I knew Jews had a different religion from my family, but they didn’t seem any more exotic than the Mormons and the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Lutherans. <br /><br />People in New York (and evangelicals) seem to be more conscious of Jewishness as a category. Those pop culture stereotypes Phoebe mentions seem plausible, but I would never connect them to Jewishness without prompting. <br /> <br />caryatisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-90071998922742609502013-04-29T01:26:32.556-04:002013-04-29T01:26:32.556-04:00Sorry: previous one is still Abby; I finally figur...Sorry: previous one is still Abby; I finally figured out how to change my username from the Spice Girls reference that I chose when I was 15.BartletForAmericahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04785356823064517394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-31434620748990244472013-04-29T01:25:43.192-04:002013-04-29T01:25:43.192-04:00It's hard to have specific examples, because, ...It's hard to have specific examples, because, as happens with these things, it wasn't always concrete and clear. But I'll come up with a few memories from high school and college. <br /><br />I celebrated different, and implicitly less important, holidays. I fought to get prom rescheduled one year because they scheduled it for Passover (IT SAID PASSOVER ON THE CALENDAR RIGHT UNDER WHERE THE PRINCIPAL WROTE "PROM"). People at school were furious with me because they'd already made dinner plans and such. I tried to explain that it was like if it had been scheduled for Christmas and was told nothing would ever be scheduled for Christmas.* Uh, yeah.<br /><br />Being in the South, I was surrounded by people who lived and breathed their religion. I was always aware how different I was, how not-them. Their social activities were often church-based, and I was left out. References to Christian dogma, leaders, scripture were always there. But they tried to include me. By talking about things like Mosaic law. A phrase I never heard at Sunday School. But I was assumed to be an expert on all things Jewish, primarily all things Jewish around the time of Jesus. The questions all came to me. Any time something Jewish was mentioned, I was asked about it. <br /><br />They were obsessed with my difference. They prayed for me, and made sure I knew it. Because they loved me. They did it because they loved me, see, and they didn't want me to go to hell. Which I was going to. Because of my religion. But, they assured me, I could totally be a Messianic Jew!<br /><br /><br />*Not that they're comparable holidays at all. And, of course, they were right. I lectured a store manager when I was five years old and living in a small town in Virginia, because the store had no Chanukah decorations.BartletForAmericahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04785356823064517394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-28005721162892282432013-04-28T22:41:42.230-04:002013-04-28T22:41:42.230-04:00I agree that Nick's description of his student...I agree that Nick's description of his students' ignorance seems surprising given the number of Jews at UChicago at the very least. He is right to the extent that a Holocaust-centered understanding of antisemitism of the sort we received will not readily help anyone understand how Marx is using the Jews in On the Jewish Question, but yes, they probably have heard of the Holocaust. <br /><br />But even granting that things may have changed since <i>back in the day</i> when we were there (after all, Ex Libris now resembles a fancier Starbucks), what puzzles me is why Nick sees his students' benevolent ignorance as a problem rather than evidence of progress towards an antisemitism-free world or something like that. It would be one thing if they remained theologically-conscious Christians while mysteriously forgetting the history of Christian-Jewish relations in the West, but if they've abandoned both antisemitism and the Christian theology that once contributed to antisemitism, what's the problem?Miss Self-Importanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04477849823290773026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-16985152090448004932013-04-28T21:05:58.349-04:002013-04-28T21:05:58.349-04:00Abby,
I'm still wondering what sorts of thing...Abby,<br /><br />I'm still wondering what sorts of things you mean. I mean, I know what anti-Semitic stereotypes are, but what sort of things have you dealt with? How does it manifest itself, this Othering? I don't doubt you - just wondering if it's similar to what I experienced about a decade earlier.<br /><br />MSI,<br /><br />I think yours is a different (and more scholarly) angle of the bulimia argument - if these kids don't already know about anti-Semitism, why present it as something so central? <br /><br />But I tend to think they <i>do</i> know about it. They may not share/reproduce these views, but if they haven't heard of anti-Semitism, they were likely under a rock during even skimpy Holocaust education and various other times this would have surely come up. I mean, I'm biased, of course, given that I heard all about anti-Semitism growing up. But the idea that non-Jews (and 19-year-old Jews???) wouldn't know about it, I just doubt it.Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-57984620186937736192013-04-28T20:49:21.734-04:002013-04-28T20:49:21.734-04:00I don't exactly understand what the problem wi...I don't exactly understand what the problem with the situation Nick describes is: "I worry...that not knowing the argument well enough makes the response to it harder to produce when needed." If the reason that students don't "know the argument" is b/c they've never experienced or perpetrated antisemitism, and they intend to go on thinking of Jews as an uninteresting subset of whites, then why would they ever need to "produce a response to it"? They will live in a world devoid of antisemitism, except perhaps abroad (and abroad is full of all kinds of barbarisms that we condemn without a college course in their history; this would be no different), so what is the use of an education in correct responding? Wouldn't imposing the history of antisemitism on them in such a situation be about as useful as teaching them the history of anti-Catholic sentiment in Boston or something equivalently archaic? Certainly Boston's anti-Catholicism is a matter of historical significance and interest - my point is not that we should bury it or something - but if it's not a live political issue at this point, does it merit universal attention as a matter of civic necessity?Miss Self-Importanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04477849823290773026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-86435272022749570002013-04-28T19:26:30.187-04:002013-04-28T19:26:30.187-04:00I've obviously never experienced any sort of o...I've obviously never experienced any sort of outright, blatant anti-Semetic; that's unacceptable in society. But I've very much been viewed as the Other. In many places that may be the bigger thing. It's not that people have a <i>problem</i> with Jews, but we're still seen as different. The stereotypes may not be bad per se, but they exist, and they contribute to the feeling of Othering, and to the feeling that I was constantly representing my people. For many of my friends, I was the only Jew they knew they'd ever met.<br /><br />The problem is (surprisingly? unsurprisingly?) particularly bad among evangelical Christians, who know lots about Judaism, at least as it was practiced circa, say, 33 B.C.E. They lovvvvve Jews, except for how they want to save us. It's almost a fetishization. I met more evangelicals who had been to Israel than I did Jews who had been to Israel. While they aren't anti-Semitic in the classic way, they have a creepy, laser-like focus on us. We're their number one conversion target. In some ways, I would rather be called a kike.<br /><br />I linked to this post on Facebook, and a girl I know left this comment: "I would say a lot of younger people in my area view anti-Semitism as 'acceptable' racism. I remember there was a point in high school where 'you're such a Jew' was a popular phrase..." She's 21 and attended a public high school in a college town in Indiana.BartletForAmericahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04785356823064517394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-43058283585461145282013-04-28T19:12:30.088-04:002013-04-28T19:12:30.088-04:00I'm curious what you experienced, on account o...I'm curious what you experienced, on account of my anecdotes are kinda-sorta ancient at this point!<br /><br />But yes, anti-Semitism clearly lives on in an older generation. But it <i>would</i> mean something if "a class at a prestigious university" had genuinely never heard of it. As opposed to in the past, when they'd have maybe thought it was crass to openly express it.Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-6539022154320213252013-04-28T18:38:41.859-04:002013-04-28T18:38:41.859-04:00I have more substantive thoughts--as someone who g...I have more substantive thoughts--as someone who graduated from college a year ago--but my head hurts, so I will just say this:<br /><br />"Here is Oklahoma state Rep. Dennis Johnson (R-Duncan) using the phrase 'Jew me down' when talking about small business owners. Someone pointed it out to him and he quickly "apologized," saying 'I apologize to the Jews. They're good small businessmen as well.'"<br /><br />Via http://boingboing.net/2013/04/24/oklahoma-state-rep-dennis-joh.html<br /><br />Antisemitism may be dead in a class at a prestigious university, but that's hardly a good metric for its existence elsewhere, including in Southern legislatures.BartletForAmericahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04785356823064517394noreply@blogger.com