tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post6575458666795587356..comments2024-03-12T22:31:46.500-04:00Comments on What Would Phoebe Do?: A lack of heated I-P debate online? If only...Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-18527076533573494172011-02-08T21:19:05.116-05:002011-02-08T21:19:05.116-05:00Basically, if they feel the tenets of Feminism 101...Basically, if they feel the tenets of Feminism 101 are in some way being argued with, or feel in any way that there is disagreement with certain premises, that is deemed "mansplaining," which is a "silencing tactic" according to certain self-described feminists who have been accorded <i>a lot</i> of blog street cred.<br /><br />I certainly agree this is ridiculous, but my point is just that it's not some specialized Andrew Sullivan way of describing the the reception of dissenting views.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-64407156831847337792011-02-08T15:28:11.821-05:002011-02-08T15:28:11.821-05:00Anon,
Since you keep insisting on this point, and...Anon,<br /><br />Since you keep insisting on this point, and it's not one I've come across on feminist blogs or otherwise, please explain how feminists are using "silencing," what's being referred to.Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-85934617943233262762011-02-08T15:25:37.389-05:002011-02-08T15:25:37.389-05:00Well, silencing is a big, big claim on the feminis...Well, silencing is a big, big claim on the feminist blogosphere, actually. So even if you are correct, you're hardly describing a unique phenomenon, and I'd say you really need to wrestle with the whole concept instead of just picking at a few critics of Israel who are doing what amounts to the usual thing within leftist debating circles. That would be like, say, arguing there is an "Israel Lobby" that is somehow different in nature or in power than every other interest group out there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-37554534096901881612011-02-08T14:12:12.334-05:002011-02-08T14:12:12.334-05:00Anon,
The "self-selection" is what I ex...Anon,<br /><br />The "self-selection" is what I explained - I'm not talking about 70-year-olds, nor, for that matter, am I talking about the dozen or so hippies who used to stand in Union Square in NY with pro-Palestinian placards. If <i>at top colleges</i> it's frowned upon to be pro-Israel, it's tough to say that those who aren't are being silenced, unless, as I mention in the comment above, you're equating "silencing" with "not getting the legislation you want passed." Once again, I am a feminist in the usual political sense of the term, and am not aware of how anyone's being silenced these days for being a feminist.Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-28206374495936074652011-02-08T14:03:40.487-05:002011-02-08T14:03:40.487-05:00Love the false binary there between Zionism and &q...Love the false binary there between Zionism and "off the map"...<br /><br />I really still think that there is a major self-selection issue when you are talking about what is "mainstream." Now, it is true that folks at top colleges or Daily Kos or whatever are overwhelmingly liberal and that liberal opinion on Israel has had some pretty big shifts, and may do that some more as we see an increasingly right-wing being pushed by the Israeli government, <i>but</i> liberals are pretty damn far from the onl game in town, politically speaking in the U.S. Hence my comparison to feminist thought, which often ends up being pretty damn irrelevant when it comes to determining actual policy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-82857774843531971102011-02-08T08:26:52.261-05:002011-02-08T08:26:52.261-05:00I think you're right to point out the connecti...I think you're right to point out the connection between silencing accusations and conspiracy theorizing. What happens is, it begins that way, but then it becomes so ingrained that 'anyone who criticizes Israel is called an anti-Semite' that people start making this claim who <i>aren't</i> conspiracy theorists, but who've heard so many times that they will be silenced if they criticize Israel that they've come to believe this <i>without ever having been silenced</i>.<br /><br />I'm still not sure what the connection is between silencing and policy. The way I look at it is, the potentially silenced are the younger and less definitively influential. Whereas a politician who would be happy to see Israel wiped off the map, but who claims Zionism in the hopes of getting Jewish votes, isn't stating his true desires, but it's not quite "silencing."Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-4192489057470850242011-02-08T08:05:08.610-05:002011-02-08T08:05:08.610-05:00I think people who feel that the view they favor o...I think people who feel that the view they favor on I-P is being silenced mean something like this:<br /><br />My view of the conflict is absolutely and obviously correct. No cognitively normal person could dissent from it unless bribed/bulled. Only the existence of a vast, well-funded conspiracy can explain the failure of my view to become public policy.eamonnmcdonaghhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07897129268585154483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-49476292374969782022011-02-08T07:28:24.543-05:002011-02-08T07:28:24.543-05:00I identify as a feminist, tilt left on these sorts...I identify as a feminist, tilt left on these sorts of issues, and no, I don't believe feminists are silenced by anti-feminists or non-feminists much these days. I think we're defining "silencing" differently - you seem to be defining it as an inability to pass legislation, which is not how I believe the term is generally used. Expect a post on this...Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-74957291770673343612011-02-08T07:24:22.599-05:002011-02-08T07:24:22.599-05:00"I mention precisely the circles I mean, and ..."I mention precisely the circles I mean, and I don't mean Congress. I mean educated 20 and 30 somethings (and some a bit older too) who are journalists, bloggers, or otherwise making themselves heard. Not leftists."<br /><br />By and large, those educate young people you talk about are leftist, whether they identify that way or not. And they believe in all kinds of things that have a real hard time making it into policy. The "matter of time" argument is often a canard. Hell, marijuana legalization failed in California last year, ffs.<br /><br />"If I mention in a group of people who graduated from top colleges within the last ten years that I consider myself a Zionist, I would, for example, get less than hearty approval."<br /><br />Can you really not conceive of issues where the intellectual vanguard, the elites, whatever we want to call them, simply don't get traction for some of their views? For example, I'd say most of those top college graduates are strongly pro-choice, yet in those same 10-20 years we've seen reproductive freedom curtailed in various ways, chipped away at in the courts and legislatures, and public opinion has actually swung in a pro-life direction.<br /><br />"If that were the case, how would they still have their jobs?"<br /><br />Let me rephrase an earlier point more directly. Does the fact that there exist feminists in public life and the blogosphere prove feminists don't have to deal with silencing?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-17463380791068301552011-02-08T05:09:21.164-05:002011-02-08T05:09:21.164-05:00One more point on this - I realize matter-of-time ...One more point on this - I realize matter-of-time arguments are of little comfort for those as excited about cutting off Israel as others (including myself) are for the legalization of same-sex marriage. But in the mean time, how is Congress, or any other cohort of not-so-young influential types, silencing dissent? Walt and Mearsheimer had their masterpiece, Beinart said his bit, Roger Cohen sits comfortably on the NYT op-ed page, and so so many influential but not as big-name sorts are paid by major publications to express, among other views, ones critical of Israel. This is what I don't get - the "silencing" argument. Is the implication that some rich, Zionistic Jew funds each and every one of these writers, and if they say the wrong thing, they're fired? If that were the case, how would they still have their jobs?Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-46295510768913858912011-02-08T05:03:17.830-05:002011-02-08T05:03:17.830-05:00Anon,
I mention precisely the circles I mean, and...Anon,<br /><br />I mention precisely the circles I mean, and I don't mean Congress. I mean educated 20 and 30 somethings (and some a bit older too) who are journalists, bloggers, or otherwise making themselves heard. Not leftists. And no, I don't think Matthew Yglesias, Andrew Sullivan, etc., are silenced if they want to say something less than rah-rah about Israel. That this shift isn't reflected in policy is only because it's just a matter of time. If I mention in a group of people who graduated from top colleges within the last ten years that I consider myself a Zionist, I would, for example, get less than hearty approval.Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-17919468622859353262011-02-08T04:58:51.544-05:002011-02-08T04:58:51.544-05:00"But what does it mean to use an "intimi..."But what does it mean to use an "intimidation tactic" if in mainstream circles it's become more socially acceptable to be the person questioning US aid to Israel than to be identified as in any way pro-Israel? "<br /><br /><br />What "mainstream circles" are you hanging out in? Because as far as public opinion polling is concerned, as far as the mainstream media is concerned, and definitely as far as Congress is concerned, there ain't a whole lot of controversy about that aid. I mean, yes, I'm sure if you self-select a group of lefty bloggers (or the occasional Paulite libertarian types) and survey opinion, you will get a different opinion, but that's like reading a bunch of feminist blogs and then citing their existence as proof that there's no silencing against feminists.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com