tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post6346537566880672038..comments2024-03-12T22:31:46.500-04:00Comments on What Would Phoebe Do?: Against college room-sharingPhoebe Maltz Bovyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-63059784743194932272019-01-13T15:42:13.856-05:002019-01-13T15:42:13.856-05:00Living with a roommate is easy, when you find the ...Living with a roommate is easy, when you find the perfect one, Find your perfect roommate on <a href="https://www.roommatebot.com/2019/01/mortgage-top-10-best-roommate-finders.html" rel="nofollow">The best roommate finders on the web</a>!<br />shahrianafizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00180730420450998988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-46235069737020843862009-05-11T00:24:00.000-04:002009-05-11T00:24:00.000-04:00PG,
Maybe your immigrants and my immigrants had d...PG,<br /><br />Maybe your immigrants and my immigrants had different takes on the matter?<br /><br />"but if they are based on moral objections or concern about serious consequences rather than distaste for mess, I don't see reason for a change simply because the dependent minor lives elsewhere most of the year."<br /><br />If the concerns are moral and serious, would they necessarily cease once offspring become self-supporting financially? The means of expressing disapproval would change, but I think people who care what their parents think tend to care somewhat independently of whether their parents are or are not still paying the bills, and the threat of being cut off isn't the main motivation. The great family dramas over intermarriage, when they occur, tend to occur once children are long since financially independent. <br /><br />My point re: 18 not being 21 was that the 'it's your life, you do what you think best' may never apply to certain things, but does have to apply - gradually, in steps - to some, or else no children would ever become independent without running away from home. <br /><br />Anyway, I think the question of what college students owe their parents is an interesting one, but might merit another post.Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-6231012409307690612009-05-11T00:14:00.000-04:002009-05-11T00:14:00.000-04:00Phoebe,
I think drinking-in-any-amount tends to b...Phoebe,<br /><br />I think drinking-in-any-amount tends to be disapproved based on religion, and parents who aren't of a faith that disfavors alcohol won't care about the alcohol itself so much as its consequences. My parents were more anxious about the effects of drinking (susceptibility to assault; drunk driving or getting into a car with a drunk driver; hangovers and missing class; etc.), and the only one of our family friends who felt shamed by their kid's underage drinking was where he was caught at a party and arrested. There was a freakishly high proportion of physicians in this community, so I don't know <I>anyone</I> who picked up a tobacco habit. Even the kid who joined the varsity baseball team would chew gum and spit plain spit when the other guys had chew and spat tobacco spit.<br /><br />I suppose there's some behaviors of this sort that are acceptable so long as they're done at a distance (keep the smell out tobacco out of the house; the hangover nausea in someone else's bathroom), but if they are based on moral objections or concern about serious consequences rather than distaste for mess, I don't see reason for a change simply because the dependent minor lives elsewhere most of the year. My parents would have been little more OK with my having pre-marital sex at 18 or 21; it was the pre-marital sex they found objectionable, not running across used condoms in the trash. Mrs. Morin seems to find having her daughter live in the same room as Boys to be inherently immoral and/or likely to bring about terrible consequences, and having her do it a thousand miles away doesn't make it less so.PGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09381347581328622706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-52959391294820162612009-05-10T21:52:00.000-04:002009-05-10T21:52:00.000-04:00PG,
In terms of differences re: immigrant familie...PG,<br /><br />In terms of differences re: immigrant families, I meant not differences towards drug abuse, but towards alcohol and tobacco use, in any amount. Some kids grow up thinking that the worst possible thing they could do is get an A-, others that the worst they could do is come home smelling of beer and cigarettes. In my experience, the former are kids from immigrant homes, and the latter are not.<br /><br />"I think it's quite reasonable for parents to demand that their children abide by whatever expectation the parent sets in exchange for receiving financial support after the age of majority."<br /><br />It should be, but the fact remains that parents are expected to pay for college if they can, or as much as they can, and that college is considered in our society not some kind of finishing school but a necessity for a top career, the (assumption being the) better the college, the better the job afterward. Plus, there's a good amount of behavior that parents wouldn't want under their own roof but would be OK with if it's at a distance and they don't have to think about it, or that would seem wrong to parents when done by an 18-year-old high school senior (technically not a minor) but trivial when the 'kid' is 20, 22... The 'these are our rules' approach doesn't allow for the same gradual shift in what's allowed that happens when a kid is in high school and still living at home.Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-11624991385691783182009-05-10T20:00:00.000-04:002009-05-10T20:00:00.000-04:00As for parents and room assignments, I do think th...<I>As for parents and room assignments, I do think there's a good chance parents would take an interest, and that questions having anything to do with partying are those most affected. And, back to the question of immigrant cultures, while this is not true in all immigrant cultures (at least from what I know from high school friends), overprotective American-born parents often consider anything other than a zero-tolerance policy towards alcohol and tobacco 'partying,' but are in turn less concerned with their kids having a quiet place to study. Not knowing your parents, perhaps that wasn't their situation, but what I'm getting at is merely that there are all kinds of "involved parents," and many would, in fact, involve themselves in this way.</I>I suppose it depends on the kind of kid you have and how much you trust her. I don't smoke and wasn't much of a partier, so this wasn't a source of anxiety for my parents. But even with my more social sisters, they weren't pushing about it. I guess it really comes down to whether you think you raised your kid to do what's right on the basic stuff (like not doing drugs), or if you need the college to enforce this on your kid in your stead. As Mrs. Morin made clear, she doesn't trust her daughter and doesn't think she successfully transmitted her own moral values to her; what I find insane is expecting Stanford to do that now.<br /><br />"But there is something odd - not necessarily bad, but odd - about the 'not under my roof' expectation ending once the 'roof' is of a dorm, but a dorm room often being paid for in part or in whole by the same parents who once made the rules."<br /><br />I think it's quite reasonable for parents to demand that their children abide by whatever expectation the parent sets in exchange for receiving financial support after the age of majority. Parents don't owe their children anything more after that -- but on the other hand, the child thus treated is quite reasonable in being on chilly terms with such parents when there had been an implicit promise of financial support for college and such support is well within the parents' means.PGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09381347581328622706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-64245540170736022162009-05-10T01:06:00.000-04:002009-05-10T01:06:00.000-04:00PG,
Railroad would, I think, be a big improvement...PG,<br /><br />Railroad would, I think, be a big improvement, because there could at least be door-knocking before whatever interruptions needed to occur. But the point of this post was not, although the thread now seems to be, the nitty-gritty issues of space itself (of course some 'single' rooms are more private than others), but rather whether students should have their own bedrooms with doors, or should be forced to sleep and dress alongside randomly assigned roommates in their first year.<br /><br />As for parents and room assignments, I do think there's a good chance parents would take an interest, and that questions having anything to do with partying are those most affected. And, back to the question of immigrant cultures, while this is not true in all immigrant cultures (at least from what I know from high school friends), overprotective <I>American-born</I> parents often consider anything other than a zero-tolerance policy towards alcohol and tobacco 'partying,' but are in turn <I>less</I> concerned with their kids having a quiet place to study. Not knowing your parents, perhaps that wasn't their situation, but what I'm getting at is merely that there are all kinds of "involved parents," and many would, in fact, involve themselves in this way.<br /><br />As for the Stanford girl and her tuition, the issue of what it means that college students, who are old enough to have sex with adults of any age, to drink and smoke legally, are expected to be financially supported by their parents is another, also-interesting question, one I didn't bring up in the post because it hasn't got much to do with single rooms. But there is something odd - not necessarily bad, but odd - about the 'not under my roof' expectation ending once the 'roof' is of a dorm, but a dorm room often being paid for in part or in whole by the same parents who once made the rules.Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-65519740834386856532009-05-09T22:44:00.000-04:002009-05-09T22:44:00.000-04:00"A room I shared with two other girls in a suite-t..."A room I shared with two other girls in a suite-type scenario could have easily been split into a cramped, railroad-style three-bedroom, albeit one with a living room."<br /><br />But if it's railroad style, you still have to walk through their rooms while they're smoking or having sex in order to get to yours. I was briefly trapped from being able to return a take-home exam when I was in college because I had the "inner" room that was connected to the bathroom, with no access to the stairway except through another person's room, and that person was having sex with her boyfriend while I was taking my exam. Thankfully, he didn't take long.<br /><br />With regard to the mother-daughter conflict, I think that was clearly foretold by the NRO piece: "Perhaps, since she was a senior, we would have made an agreement with her concerning acceptable off-campus housing. ... I could talk about mother-guilt, and how I have failed to convey my moral values to my daughter."<br /><br />Do a lot of HS seniors have their parents hanging over their shoulders while they complete their <I>room request</I>? I had strict and very "involved" parents (my mom actually insisted on picking me up from the senior prom), but they assumed I'd get rooming to suit myself and they didn't really care so long as it was safe and a place I could study. They probably would have disapproved my sharing a room with one boy, especially as a freshman, but I later went on trips where I shared rooms with co-ed groups and this wasn't a big deal to them.<br /><br />Mrs. Morin just has some serious issues allowing her daughter to control her own life. It's entirely appropriate to cut off financial support to someone who has been less than honest with you, but that person was her daughter, not Stanford.PGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09381347581328622706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-6638860712335544592009-05-09T14:50:00.000-04:002009-05-09T14:50:00.000-04:00Since everyone seems to be commenting on the space...Since everyone seems to be commenting on the space issue, two questions:<br /><br />1) Do you really think, in the majority of cases, at elite schools, particularly private ones, room-sharing is primarily about space? At Chicago, I'd say it was not, although there were a good number non-room-sharing options, on-campus and off-. A room I shared with two other girls in a suite-type scenario could have easily been split into a cramped, railroad-style three-bedroom, albeit one with a living room.<br /><br />2) More to the point: for cases where space is not an issue - and we can all agree such cases do exist - do you think there's any reason to put students together in one bedroom?<br /><br />By "NYC rooms" I meant, I should note, not NYC studio apartments, which even when small would make more than adequate dorm rooms, and as such are often shared by couples, but the actual, subdivided rooms in apartments marketed as one-bedroom or larger. My own first bedroom in NYC as an adult - in a three-bedroom - fit not much more than a twin bed, and did not have a closet. This is far from an unusual situation - my place did have a living room, but many like it do not.Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-64175905029458164202009-05-09T14:28:00.000-04:002009-05-09T14:28:00.000-04:00Given that Stanford has started putting Murphy bed...Given that Stanford has started putting Murphy beds in some dorms that were formerly singles, they might even be in sub-NYC levels of space. <br /><br />I never lived in a dorm in college, though I have on some other occasions. One I stayed in at the University of Utah for a few weeks one summer (another place you'd not think would have space issues) had double rooms were it would have been extremely difficult, perhaps impossible, to make them into two singles. They would have been well below size of even the tiniest sleeping areas in a NYC studio. Probably they should have used space differently, and I agree that the justification for it is often silly, but given the space they did use, they could not have plausibly turned them into singles.Matthttp://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=410582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-87045784141022732912009-05-09T14:16:00.000-04:002009-05-09T14:16:00.000-04:00I don't think that would work at UCLA, where they...I don't think that would work at UCLA, where they packed undergrads 4-5 to a small room. Bunk beds! The UCs are in general blessed with vast amounts of land, except LA. The solution, of course, is to live off campus--which depending, could be cheaper, if not more burdensome with the commute.Danahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17260899418675764833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-51153446768423658602009-05-09T12:59:00.000-04:002009-05-09T12:59:00.000-04:00Ask any NYC landlord - a wall can always be put up...Ask any NYC landlord - a wall can always be put up, cheaply I presume, to subdivide any space large enough to fit two twin beds.Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-91431118912393328972009-05-09T12:56:00.000-04:002009-05-09T12:56:00.000-04:00Bizarrely, at Stanford there is a space issue. De...Bizarrely, at Stanford there <I>is</I> a space issue. Despite the university having thousands upon thousands upon thousands of unused acres, there's a fascistic land use agreement w/ Santa Clara county regulating how much land can actually be used. Hence, never enough parking, never enough office space, and, probably, conscious scrimping and saving on even the amount of extra space it would require to convert the undergrad dorm rooms into singles.Paul Gowderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12987034334075962676noreply@blogger.com