tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post3239273513480008908..comments2024-03-12T22:31:46.500-04:00Comments on What Would Phoebe Do?: Requisite Jewish Christmas postPhoebe Maltz Bovyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-45411166705671564402012-12-26T12:21:44.261-05:002012-12-26T12:21:44.261-05:00Phoebe: yes to all of that. I like your point abo...Phoebe: yes to all of that. I like your point about WASPs and Irish Catholics. Of course, there is no similar label that I can think of which includes the simple designation "Christian." (I'm sure there are in other countries though.) I admit that I have much less objection to being called a WASP (despite the possibly pejorative connotations) or even just a Protestant (but better still would be New England Congregationalist, though that might be fairly meaningless to a lot of people) than I do to being called a Christian. That at least does get to my cultural heritage in a way that "Christian" does not (except, I assume, to the non-culturally-Christian who, being outside it, generalize using larger cultural categories).Andrew Stevenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13453328821252013152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-33755909128883688942012-12-26T09:57:29.293-05:002012-12-26T09:57:29.293-05:00Andrew,
Short answer: Agreed that those of Christ...Andrew,<br /><br />Short answer: Agreed that those of Christian ancestry who aren't Christian aren't Christian. I've even argued this point <i>with</i> Jews who think they are, so I guess I'm not the one who needs convincing. Assuming everyone is some religion in their heritage gets us into problems - see: Obama, Islam.<br /><br />Long answer: Basically, you're right that there are Jews who identify as such despite not being observant. But this doesn't cover the whole picture - an impossible-to-count set of individuals are identified as Jews regardless of how they self-identify. Non-Jews might wonder at what it means for an atheist to also be a Jew, but there are other non-Jews who don't doubt for a minute that Saul Goldman is a Jew, whatever he believes. As for Jews identifying other Jews, if you're referring to <i>observant</i> Jews, they have no opinion on Saul Goldberg unless his mother was Jewish or he converted to Judaism. Also, Jews are maybe best understood as a quasi-visible minority. Certain people are identified as Jews by how they look, and will be taken not so seriously if they announce that they are not or no longer Jewish. <a href="http://nymag.com/news/features/black-jews-2012-12/" rel="nofollow">Not true of all Jews</a>, of course. Thus "quasi."<br /><br />And then there's the fact that everyone's background is some mix of cultural and religious factors. This isn't just a Jewish thing, thus terms like "Irish Catholic" or "WASP," neither of which assumes an individual actually believes in anything particular. While I would not consider someone of one of these backgrounds "Christian" if they did not so identify, I would say that it's easy, if you come from the majority group, not to recognize that you also have cultural particularity. This might be more of an issue in Europe than in the States, but there's a sense in which atheists of majority/white ancestry will assume cultural particularities from minority groups are somehow evidence that these groups are hyperreligious. The example that comes to mind is how the circumcision debate was discussed - people were assuming Jews or Muslims believed they'd be struck down by God if they didn't circumcise their sons. Some might feel this way, but difference isn't necessarily religious difference, even if it gets classified that way. Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-41058721138933531532012-12-26T00:53:38.438-05:002012-12-26T00:53:38.438-05:00I once remarked to a Jewish woman of my acquaintan...I once remarked to a Jewish woman of my acquaintance that I wasn't a Christian. I got an odd look from her. It took me a bit to figure out that the look was because she regarded me as Christian, regardless of what I actually believed. Understandable, as you say, though it's not just that Jews-by-culture get identified as Jews regardless of religious affiliation, but they themselves identify as Jews despite not believing in a word of the religion (and, if I understand correctly, even a great many observant Jews consider a lapsed Jew as Jewish, though they may not so regard their children). <br /><br />Christianity is defined by belief, though. If you don't believe, you're simply not a Christian. Islam is the same. Apostates are not regarded as Muslim. (So Salman Rushdie is not a Muslim, despite growing up in a Muslim family.) So I do object to being called a Christian just because my parents were Christian, and the Christian community would similarly object. I do not object to being called a Gentile though.Andrew Stevenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13453328821252013152noreply@blogger.com