tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post2775676369009565331..comments2024-03-12T22:31:46.500-04:00Comments on What Would Phoebe Do?: An Easter Monday-not-April-Fools postPhoebe Maltz Bovyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-51622622447013120132013-04-02T14:10:28.581-04:002013-04-02T14:10:28.581-04:00Caryatis, I'm not following your objection her...Caryatis, I'm not following your objection here. Let's say 90% of Group X thinks saying A is offensive, while 90% of those outside Group X doesn't see the big deal. The majority isn't expected to have infinite preexisting knowledge of what's problematic for Group X, esp. if this group is a tiny minority and members of the majority may not have even heard of its existence. (I.e. someone not knowing how to properly use "cis" isn't necessarily <i>transphobic</i>, but may have never even heard of "trans.") But once someone learns that A offends the vast majority of those in Group X, how exactly is it burdensome to "larger society" to refrain from saying A, or to say A knowing full well one is eliciting backlash? Where does censorship enter into this? <br /><br />With the holidays example, I don't think anyone would suggest that it's offensive to wish someone who might be Jewish (and, in theory, anyone might) a merry Christmas. What would be offensive - and worthy of <i>criticism</i> (not some kind of authoritarian penalty or whatever it is you're suggesting) - is if the second person's like, 'Thanks, but actually, I don't celebrate Christmas, I'm Jewish' (not necessary in most cases, but with people who know each other better, not necessarily uncalled for), and maybe the conversation goes on for a bit in both directions, but culminates in the first person telling the second that his refusal to celebrate Christmas is wrong, because it <i>is</i> a secular holiday, because the majority says so.<br /><br />This is all really about <i>civility</i>, not legal free-speech restraints. No one is suggesting, to my knowledge, that we outlaw using "articulate" to describe anyone who's black. But it's, you know, a <i>nice gesture</i> to refrain from doing so once you know the deal. I'm not seeing how that's a burden.Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-31750037570517794282013-04-02T13:18:43.527-04:002013-04-02T13:18:43.527-04:00"what's offensive to Group X is for membe..."what's offensive to Group X is for members of Group X to determine...if you're not a part of the group in question, your thoughts on what ought or ought not offend members of that group are irrelevant."<br /><br />Agreed. Being offended, is, after all, a feeling, and it is not for me to tell anyone what feelings they have. But the caveat is that deciding what sorts of speech should be censored or penalized is for the majority to decide, not for Group X, precisely because Group X puts too much weight on its own interests and tends to deemphasize those of the larger society (or of Group Y.)caryatisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-61208182647567309712013-04-02T10:11:05.608-04:002013-04-02T10:11:05.608-04:00David,
"you're presumed to be celebratin...David,<br /><br />"you're presumed to be celebrating Christmas and actively accosted with Christmas spirit unless you affirmatively opt out."<br /><br />That's definitely a lot of it. Although I think it goes further than that, at least for Jews whose non-celebration of Christmas is their main expression of Jewish adherence. (As vs. more observant Jews, who have other ways of expressing this.) There's this idea that Christmas is 100% enjoyment for those who do celebrate it - there's no sense that it might be a family get-together and something of a chore for many who observe it. Whereas Easter - and this gets to Britta's point as well - seems like a church holiday, and thus not so idyllic. Plus, Christmas must be euphemized as "the holidays," or Winter Break, whereas Spring Break really is just that - there's no sense that it's about Easter but no one dares admit it.<br /><br />Britta,<br /><br />As Kohen points out, and as I've found as well, the whole pagan/secular/Christian distinction is something Jews tend not to really care about. That Christmas isn't 'really' Christian is what allows lapsed Christians to celebrate it, but it still feels plenty <i>culturally</i> Christian to Jews. <br /><br />But - and this gets to David's point as well - the difference with Easter is there's no particular assumption that it's <i>not</i> a religious holiday, and therefore that non-Christians who fail to observe it are making a fuss/being difficult. So when Jews <i>do</i> go in for Peeps and such, there's this sense perhaps not that it's secular, but that it isn't under duress.Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-52725590265878952982013-04-02T01:49:15.591-04:002013-04-02T01:49:15.591-04:00Well, Christmas has really only very tenuous relig...Well, Christmas has really only very tenuous religious significance, whereas Easter (+ holy week) is by far the most holy and significant holiday in the Christian calendar, and indeed, the only holiday which defines Christianity as such. <br /><br />Of course, even more so than Christmas, secular Easter stuff is even less related to religious Easter stuff. Eggs, bunnies, chocolate, and dancing around bonfires is all very firmly linked to pagan traditions or just made up general "yay Spring!!" stuff. Maybe that's why secular Easter stuff doesn't grate in the same way? The holiday is so absolutely religious there's no way to secularize the religious stuff, so the secular stuff just runs completely parallel. Lots of devout Christians fully celebrate Easter in all its pomp and circumstance with no eggs or bunnies making an appearance, in a way that would be very hard to do with Christmas.* (Eating lamb is maybe more fraught.) There are no secular Easter hymns, because there is no way to sing about some religious figure's resurrection without it being religious. Also, my guess is most people, Easter-celebrating Jews or otherwise, stick to the more secular end and avoid the more overtly pagan parts, like dancing around bonfires until midnight/dawn.<br /><br />*Obviously Christmas is on the winter solstice and has no link to any actual birth of anyone, and many of the rituals are traced back to pagan influences, but there was more of an attempt to put an overt Christianized spin on many of them. E.g., Martin Luther was the guy who invented(?) the Christmas tree, and he had all this stuff on "reflecting the light and beauty of God in your home" which makes it hard to take the tree as a totally secular/pagan thing.Brittahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02224221011978374915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-15287513954314043312013-04-01T23:35:45.285-04:002013-04-01T23:35:45.285-04:00Huh. Growing up, I very aggressively did not celeb...Huh. Growing up, I very aggressively did not celebrate Christmas (to the point where doing Christmas with my girlfriend's family still makes me quite uncomfortable, even though all it entails for me is getting gifts and eating delicious food), but I just normally didn't celebrate Easter. It wasn't that I didn't view Easter as religious -- we definitely wouldn't have painted eggs -- but it just wasn't as ubiquitous and thus it wasn't so important to disavow it. Christmas is so woven into the daily fabric of December life that you can't just ignore it -- you're presumed to be celebrating Christmas and actively accosted with Christmas spirit unless you affirmatively opt out. By contrast, one can go about your normal life on Easter and nobody will say one thing or the other.<br /><br />The result is that I was and remain deeply ignorant about Easter. I was in law school the first time I noticed someone with ash on their forehead during ash Wednesday (I remember because I came <i>this</i> close to telling them "you have smudge" before something in my mind clicked and I stopped myself). And yesterday I tried to run to the grocery store to pick up some matzah and was temporarily baffled by its closure.David Schraubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04946653376744012423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-90255590379079190302013-04-01T13:00:41.407-04:002013-04-01T13:00:41.407-04:00Or in simpler terms, think of it like this: what&#...Or in simpler terms, think of it like this: what's offensive to Group X is for members of Group X to determine. Group X, not being a monolith, is bound to have some internal disagreement over where to draw the line (even intra-familial, as the egg-hunt anecdote conveys). But if you're not a part of the group in question, your thoughts on what ought or ought not offend members of that group are irrelevant. They should certainly not be the deciding factor. There's no population-wide vote, with majority-rules.Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-62074078981367326702013-04-01T11:32:56.076-04:002013-04-01T11:32:56.076-04:00Caryatis,
If the preschool rounded up the Jewish ...Caryatis,<br /><br />If the preschool rounded up the Jewish children (note the plaques next to schools in Paris - this did once happen) that would be worst. That there's a spectrum doesn't mean less big deals aren't important. Not to keep repeating myself, but remember what I explained in a recent thread re: "articulate"? Marginalization operates on various levels, not all of which are immediately apparent to the not-marginalized.<br /><br />What Kohen addressed was the question of perspective. That what seems like nothing from the outside can seem like something from the inside. The problem - see, for further explanation, my already-long-winded post above - is that Easter-egg hunts may not actually be something that will traditionally bother or exclude Jews.Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-85351982731525299232013-04-01T11:28:46.617-04:002013-04-01T11:28:46.617-04:00"First, re: Kohen's post on "privile..."First, re: Kohen's post on "privilege," I thought, yes, this does address why 'what's the big deal?' is a pathetic and even offensive response from members of the majority to complaints of a minority." <br /><br />I don't actually think he addresses that question so much as vaguely gestures towards the concept of privilege. I mean, isn't it true that some aspects of religious culture are bigger deals than others? If the preschool baptized your child without your permission, that would legitimately be a bigger deal than any number of Christianish decorations. caryatisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-67904109718440054412013-04-01T11:19:20.570-04:002013-04-01T11:19:20.570-04:00In the first line, principle -> principal? (Ple...In the first line, principle -> principal? (Please feel free to delete this)<br /><br />Mary Bethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00261066188721092231noreply@blogger.com