tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post110030174015879736..comments2024-03-12T22:31:46.500-04:00Comments on What Would Phoebe Do?: WWPD debates the Middle East. (Remember when this blog used to be all about Tasti-d-lite?...)Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-1100503938001087092004-11-15T02:32:00.000-05:002004-11-15T02:32:00.000-05:00I'm not going to speak for Jochen here, but it's n...I'm not going to speak for Jochen here, but it's not just a question of pro-Palestinian vs. pro-Israeli, but of a total difference in attitude towards Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism between the US and Europe. To be on the left in Europe often means renouncing the West, liberalism, and all that, while, in the US, there are still left-wingers speaking out against terror. (Read back issues of Dissent magazine for some good examples of that phenomenon).Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-1100371713879979882004-11-13T13:48:00.000-05:002004-11-13T13:48:00.000-05:00Well, I'm about to emigrate to the US... guess why...Well, I'm about to emigrate to the US... guess why.<br /><br />What can one do to make Europe realize the threat? Go out (in Europe), argue with people, demonstrate... not much.<br /><br />There is a second problem: Europe's (i.e. Germany/France) relation to the US. The EU is constituting itself more and more as a power bloc in oppossition to the US. And for that purpose, a good reputation in the Arab world in certainly crucial.<br /><br />For sure, it is good and necessary to protest against anti-Israeli demonstrations, but in the end, it is a good feeling to know that the US had the better weapons in 1917, in 1942, and now.<br /><br />One more example of anti-Israeli demonstrations in Europe? In Berlin (as in many other cities, such as London) was a demonstration on the 'Al-Qud' day against Israel, attended by 800 people. The anti-demonstration was attended by a mere 100 people. All of them from the radical left. I don't know if there was a demonstration like that in Paris.<br /><br />JochenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-1100367418949111842004-11-13T12:36:00.000-05:002004-11-13T12:36:00.000-05:00"What Europe should realize (particularly after th..."What Europe should realize (particularly after the murder of Theo van Gogh) is that Islamic fundamentalism is the most serious threat to that tradition, and that it has to fight it much more offensively."<br /><br />Indeed. Any thoughts on how that might actually happen?Phoebe Maltz Bovyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996039330841139883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-1100312417964602422004-11-12T21:20:00.000-05:002004-11-12T21:20:00.000-05:00PS: Sorry the comment got so long... and I feel ho...PS: Sorry the comment got so long... and I feel honoured that my first comment made it to the main page!<br />JochenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-1100311981470678802004-11-12T21:13:00.000-05:002004-11-12T21:13:00.000-05:00PS: Sorry the comment got so long... and I feel ho...PS: Sorry the comment got so long... and I feel honoured that my first comment made it to the main page!<br />JochenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7146512.post-1100307097264245502004-11-12T19:51:00.000-05:002004-11-12T19:51:00.000-05:00I guess I want to respond...
I (being a pro-Israe...I guess I want to respond...<br /><br />I (being a pro-Israel leftist, something that might be very unusual in this country) agree with you that it is concerning how much the French (but also Germans, Italiens, Spaniards...) support the Palestians who finally wish to throw all Israelis into the Ocean.<br /><br />I find some parts of your argument, however, a bit problematic.<br /><br />Unfortunately, too many Jews sat around in France before Germany attacked, and many Jews flew to France between 1933 and 1939. (They caused in fact some rejection, as people were afraid of economic competition. Yet, the patterns of this rejection are quite different, it seems to me, from Nazi anti-Semitism.) So, I'm afraid most French Jews were out of luck, as they believed France being save.<br /><br />France turned out not to be save. But it wasn't because of the German military superiority. True, the French could have helped the Jews much more (only Denmark really saved 'its' Jews), and Vichy collaborated with the Germans, but at the same time, there were a lot of French who fought the Germans and helped the Jews. (Norwegian Resistance, as far as I know, didn't really care for the Jews, to give one different example.)<br /><br />You mention the Dreyfuss Affair - I have studied it a bit once, certainely not as much as you did, and I forgot the details. If I remember correctly, there was not only the anti-Semitic faction, but also a strong republican side that rejected the anti-Semitism (Emil Zola), a side that finally proved victorious. (Correct me if I'm wrong!) One should keep that side in mind!That marks a crucial difference to similar events in Germany, for example, not speak of Russia's violent pogroms.<br /><br />I find it hard to believe that the state of Israel is a result of French anti-Semitism. True, Herzl was inspired by Dreyfuss, but what made Zionism a powerfull movement was not French anti-Semitism.<br /><br />I don't want to deny French anti-Semitism, but you somehow focus too much on France, and it is somehow too black. In contrast to other European countries, France has a strong secular, enlightened - western - tradition. What Europe should realize (particularly after the murder of Theo van Gogh) is that Islamic fundamentalism is the most serious threat to that tradition, and that it has to fight it much more offensively.<br /><br />JochenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com